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Oklahoma Madness

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Oklahoma Madness

Postby skank-la » 22nd Aug, '13, 11:50

Not a peep here about the 22 year old Aussie studying in Oklahoma on a baseball scholarship killed by some cowardly punks 'because they were bored' -shot in the back whilst jogging on a country road.

T2K go ahead justify this madness. This shit happens every day, no every hour, several times an hour across the USA
Only reason this story is getting play is its a foreigner

Absolute madness
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby Tas » 22nd Aug, '13, 13:01

Flogging a dead horse, desperately sad, but no one over there takes the gun issue seriously. There are some gun crimes in Australia, but most if it between drug and bikie gangs targeting each other. There are police crime target groups for those incidents, but otherwise it doesn't excessively impact the general public in same fashion as gun crime seems to be accepted in the states.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby sundaymorningstaple » 22nd Aug, '13, 13:29

Was on Skype with my daughter and her husband in Dallas at 7 am this morning. They hadn't heard about it either (6pm in TX). Shanu (husband) had to do a quick search to find out about it.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby T2K » 22nd Aug, '13, 14:52

"Gun Issue?" - three violent retards murder a stranger for fun and you're worried about guns? So, if they had steered their car into him and killed him (like the story below, and that PoS actually had a "reason") - that would be normal and nothing to worry about? Really? WTF is wrong with you?

We see the world fundamentally differently, I don't think that way at all.

It would have been every bit as easy for these guys to flick the steering wheel a little to the right as to pull a trigger. The fact that they are willing to commit a random murder, and not even for a stupid reason or pretext, is what bothers me (methodology is irrelevant).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... irror.html

Edit: Skank, I know you don't mind playing up the drama but "This shit happens every day, no every hour, several times an hour across the USA" is total and absolute bullshit and you know it. Random spree murders, which is what this is, are not at all common.

The most common murders in the US are related to this problem - minority gang violence. You know it, I know it and the FBI crime stats know it. Check this out - this guy has been committing violent crimes since 2000, has shot 2-3 people (that the law knows about) and has been caught and charged with illegal possession of a firearm multiple times. And he's barely done any time. THAT IS THE SHIT that happens all over the place in the USA every day.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby T2K » 22nd Aug, '13, 15:02

Tas wrote:Flogging a dead horse, desperately sad, but no one over there takes the gun issue seriously. There are some gun crimes in Australia, but most if it between drug and bikie gangs targeting each other. There are police crime target groups for those incidents, but otherwise it doesn't excessively impact the general public in same fashion as gun crime seems to be accepted in the states.


Tas - it's the same in the US. The vast majority of murders are either drug / gang stuff of domestics. Random violent crime for "normal" Americans happens, but it's rare just like in Australia (remember, there are 300,000,000 Americans). Neither me, my family, nor anyone I know has ever been impacted by any sort of random violent crime.

If you removed the gang violent crime from our stats, the US is the same as Western Europe or Australia I bet. I am sure someone on the interent has done that if we looked.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby skank-la » 23rd Aug, '13, 03:37

This shit happens every day, no every hour, several times an hour across the USA" is total and absolute bullshit


Tell that to the more than 10,000's working poor & their children & parents who get killed annually in the crossfire. In no other country in the world, other than maybe Somalia, do these ignorant assholes have access to guns more easily than fresh vegetables (known as food deserts)

What's absolute bullshit is for you to try & defend this madness from the safety of beyond the borders of the USA

Cue for T2K to type another 2 pages as nauseum as if that proves he's right
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby baloo » 23rd Aug, '13, 06:29

I must admit when I first heard this news my thoughts were more about the mindset of the murderers to want to d this rather than the means they used.

If you decide to kill someone just for fun, to see what it's like to kill someone, then you'll find a way to do it.

The fact you have 3 teens thinking killing a random person for fun is ok is the bigger problem, bigger than gun control, if you so me.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby skank-la » 23rd Aug, '13, 07:01

Do you think if these three had to chase down this athlete who was in training & physically assault him instead of shooting him in the back with a firearm from a car he would be dead today?
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby slinky » 23rd Aug, '13, 08:26

skank-la wrote:Do you think if these three had to chase down this athlete who was in training & physically assault him instead of shooting him in the back with a firearm from a car he would be dead today?

No, but then 'simple' assault was apparently never their goal. They flat out said they wanted to kill somebody. Re-read baloo's comment above, I think he pretty well covers it. (What he doesn't mention are the apparent race implications that are coming out about this now,which point to yet another serious problem beyond 'bored teens looking to kill people for fun'.)
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby Lili Von Shtupp » 23rd Aug, '13, 08:48

I have a question. OK, so these kids apparently killed a guy because they just wanted to kill a guy. Would they have hesitated if the method was more problematic? From a kid's (flawed) point of view, a bullet from some anonymous drive-by gun could possibly be untraceable and leave a clean wound so there'd be no bloody clean up. But to run a guy down with a vehicle, there'd be evidence on the grill and everywhere else. To stab a man, it would be messy and dangerous, and again, more evidence to worry about. Baseball bat, same thing, I'm guessing it's messy to wash brains off the side of a car and fingerprints from a bloody Louisville slugger.

I'm just wondering if the apparent ease of a simple gun shot tips the scales towards committing this kind of crime. If they hadn't had access to a firearm, would they have just nixed the idea as too much of a pain in the ass and gone down to the lake and drank beers instead?

I might like to ask the kids that.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby Lili Von Shtupp » 23rd Aug, '13, 09:19

The more I think about this, the more I wonder.

How many teenage boys have ever wondered if they could actually kill a person? Probably a lot, what with the prevalence of violence in the news and entertainment and the possibility of serving in the military. But there's a big difference between driving past a lone jogger and shooting him in the back than there is in actually waking up to him, or chasing him down, to take him out with your own force, be it fists, knife or any other kind of weapon that you'd have to wield with your own power. Or to hit him with a car even - the violence of the impact.

A gun, by comparison, possibly detaches the killer from the crime in that sense.

How many teenagers have ever wondered if they could take their own lives? How many would never actually do it because most of the methods that are readily available are so violent and painful? (including poison but with the exception of the old car in the garage method... )

It makes me wonder if America would be so quick to send troops around the world if they had to fight in a battlefield, hand to hand, with swords and maces.

I don't think we can answer these questions at a level that would inform public policy, but I do think it's food for thought.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby Pinklepurr » 23rd Aug, '13, 10:25

It is of course huge news here, no talk of racial overtones though, in fact most of the news reports did not mention anything about those three kids except their age and the fact that they did it for "fun". I can't help but think along the same lines as Lili said. Saddest thing is, one guy is dead and for no reason. Very sad.

There may not be a lot of gun crimes here in Oz but the level of violence around is scary. Every week there are reports of people being attacked for seemingly no reason, whether it be alcohol fuelled or not, and quite a few of them are either permanently injured or killed as a result. There is a lot of aggressiveness out there.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby T2K » 23rd Aug, '13, 12:28

skank-la wrote:Do you think if these three had to chase down this athlete who was in training & physically assault him instead of shooting him in the back with a firearm from a car he would be dead today?


Read the story. They were in a car, he was jogging on the side of the road. All they had to was flick the steering wheel a bit, no footchase needed.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby T2K » 23rd Aug, '13, 12:38

Lili - This Singaporean guy randomly killed this woman with a knife (and injured several others): http://sg.news.yahoo.com/nsf-who-fatall ... 04056.html

A guy was beat to death at Clarke Quay a few years back with a motorcycle helmet. Guns do no have a causative effect on violent crime, though they are certainly one of several efficient tools for it. Violent crime requires violent people. Millions of people around the world lawfully own millions of guns...and they never hurt anyone. Meanwhile millions of violent crimes occur annually without guns.

Skank - So you see no difference between this random "murder for fun" and gang violence? Really? Step back and be logical, rational and non-emotional for a minute, please.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby Tas » 23rd Aug, '13, 13:04

Good discussion points. An article today interviewed a father of one of the boys friends, he stated it was a gang initiation. I concur with LVS points about the detachment associated with a gun as weapon. But also note there a significant issue in Aus around alcohol fuelled violence, a number of deaths occurring because of a fight including in particular the king hit and in several cases machetes. My only point is I'm glad there are less guns on the street locally to reduce the number of deaths. But the source, reason, for the deaths have common threads, either gang violence, or alcohol fuelled rage.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby Fat Bob » 23rd Aug, '13, 13:08

Society has a lot to answer for. The gang culture anywhere is an issue (remember the staring incidents in Singapore?)

But you have to question a society that allows the gang culture to be so strong and allows such easy access to guns.

T2K, you've said before it's how these people are brought up and the society they live in. Gun availability is part of that society.

You are right: reduce the issues in the society. Is there a push within the US to reduce such culture? How's it working? Is that the single, only way to tackle the problem?
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby baloo » 23rd Aug, '13, 13:11

Lili, when I was a kid I probably had similar thoughts. What's it like to kill someone, or top yourself, or whatever. I also had access to guns and ammunition at home. I knew how to shoot an air rifle at the age of 5.

Thinking about something and actually doing it a different things. This for me is much more about society today than it is about guns.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby slinky » 23rd Aug, '13, 14:07

baloo wrote:Thinking about something and actually doing it a different things. This for me is much more about society today than it is about guns.


I agree. FB said it when he said society has a lot to answer for. But, I'll take it a step further and point out that parents have a lot to answer for. Why didn't you do those things that likely crossed your mind, baloo? My money is on the fact that your parents were fully present in your life every day and taught you about the basics of right vs. wrong, self-respect and respect for others. ALL of these things are absent in too many households, if you ask me. There is where we need to start, but how do you make that kind of change?? I suspect the first step is figuring out how it got lost in the first place. I also suspect there isn't a simple, easy answer to that.

Edit:
Those of you who share a certain Facebook friend with me may have seen this article earlier today - it speaks well to this issue.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby T2K » 23rd Aug, '13, 14:35

In all of these discussions, I've always come back to the fact that in the US context the problems we have with violence are societal. Specifically, the lack of any emphasis on personal responsibility for one's life, decisions and actions.

The link I posted above (seriously, look at it, this guy has shot several people and not served more than a couple years in jail and his case is in no way unique!) shows that we have a criminal justice system that allows people to violently offend again and again and again. This, among many other factors, emboldens those inclined to violence, it encourages violent behaviour.

The societal root causes are difficult to correct. From a governmental perspective it would require policies which would be very hard to align with our Constitutional liberties and which would be very heavy-handed and even draconian. Also, since non-whites commit violent crime at a much higher rate per capita in the US, such policies, to be effective, would likely be considered "racist."

Guns laws are a mere sideshow to the big picture. Again, look at the link above, that guy has been arrested at least 3 times for illegal possession of a firearm. I think each one has a max penalty of 5 years in jail. We don't enforce the laws we have, making more would not achieve any results with criminals.
If we fully and rigorously enforced our laws, we would get results, but it wouldn't have stopped these three retards from committing murder if they were intent on it.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby Tas » 24th Aug, '13, 06:45

I find the emphasis on laws interesting. Learning to read and write, understand basic financial management, how to cook and make basic healthy meals, respect for your neighbour missing in those solutions. Higher positive intervention in households under pressure with young children not recognised there. There is the well known view, show me the child at four and I will show you the man. My friends in child social work protection say there is strong evidence that the neurological pathways of children are set in their first 2 years of life. I don't see that parenting assistance in the home is a policy removed from civil liberty. But that would require a high cost investment, people on the ground, in communities that may not currently be contributing highly to the tax revenue - will never get the political support.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby T2K » 26th Aug, '13, 12:45

"parenting assistance in the home" would result in "it's my home and these are my kids, who are you to tell me how to raise them, keep your nose out of it" and then what? The people that would care enough to want or accept such services probably don't need it. The ones that do need it wouldn't want or accept it.

And then we're back to some heavy handed stuff.

edit - grammar correction
Last edited by T2K on 26th Aug, '13, 13:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oklahoma Madness

Postby slinky » 26th Aug, '13, 13:20

Just as one example of govt mandated 'parenting' - I remember reading an article (sorry, don't remember which state now) where parents were no longer allowed to send a packed lunch to school for their kids because the state decided the school lunch would (always, apparently) be healthier than what the parents would send. Seriously, since when has a public school lunch ever really been healthy?? The salt content alone would be enough to throw it into the unhealthy range. As a parent who thinks about nutrition and giving my kids food that is good for them, I would have been irate over such a rule (as many parents were).
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