Another one...

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Lili Von Shtupp
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Another one...

Post by Lili Von Shtupp » 19th Aug, '10, 10:12

There was a previous debate here about the Swiss ban on minarets. Now, it seems there's a similar debate in the US about the proposed building of a mosque at Ground Zero - actually a community center two blocks away. As an American, I have to respect the US Constitution that says that the mosque/community center has every right to be there. As a rational person I also have to believe that it's not right to hold all Muslims accountable for 9/11. But as a human being I have to wonder, at a gut level, will this place bridge communities or provoke further misunderstanding? I remember in the minarets debate, I took the stance that a building is just a building. Does the fact that it's at/near Ground Zero raise the stakes for me? I'm still sorting out my ideas about this one, but thought to open it up here for your reactions.

Here's links to a couple articles - the radical left view and a moderate right one, both of which I think raise interesting points.

http://www.thenation.com/article/154008 ... ree-speech

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and- ... n-muslims/
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Re: Another one...

Post by Burbage » 19th Aug, '10, 10:32

One could argue that Muslims died on the day too. There were at least half a dozen in the planes, plus whatever number died elsewhere.

I wonder when the 'free' societies of the west will realise that their way of life is no longer under threat from war, but from their own misguided human rights laws and constitutions.
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Re: Another one...

Post by Rosbif71 » 19th Aug, '10, 10:54

yes they have the right to build it there, but its highly insensitive of them to do so.
a bit of common sense from them would have seen them build it elsewhere.

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Re: Another one...

Post by slinky » 19th Aug, '10, 10:55

From what I've been reading on this subject, this seems to be coming down to a 'What does Freedom of Religion' mean kind of argument. IMO, Freedom of Religion doesn't mean Freedom FROM Religion. Basically, you are free as an individual to choose what, if any, role religion is going to play in your own life, but don't expect to never see any evidence of it in other people's lives.

The thing that freaks me out a bit is a headline I saw this morning stating something about Nancy Pelosi (Speaker of the House) wanting to investigate the the backgrounds of the 'people behind the mosque protesting' to see where the finances are coming from for this 'movement' :shock: Last I checked, the US Constitution said free speech was ok, so why do we need to 'investigate' people who are exercising that right? (assuming they aren't breaking any laws, of course)

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Re: Another one...

Post by Burbage » 19th Aug, '10, 11:00

But the stated aim of Islam is to convert the world to Islam. Therefore they need to proselytise their religion wherever they can. Building at ground zero would provide a very strong platform from which to do this. Insensitivity has nothing to do with it.

Of course, if the mosque had been approved and built ten years ago, the world trade center might still be there.

Are any other religious building being built on the site?

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Re: Another one...

Post by Lili Von Shtupp » 19th Aug, '10, 11:24

slinky wrote:From what I've been reading on this subject, this seems to be coming down to a 'What does Freedom of Religion' mean kind of argument. IMO, Freedom of Religion doesn't mean Freedom FROM Religion. Basically, you are free as an individual to choose what, if any, role religion is going to play in your own life, but don't expect to never see any evidence of it in other people's lives.

The thing that freaks me out a bit is a headline I saw this morning stating something about Nancy Pelosi (Speaker of the House) wanting to investigate the the backgrounds of the 'people behind the mosque protesting' to see where the finances are coming from for this 'movement' :shock: Last I checked, the US Constitution said free speech was ok, so why do we need to 'investigate' people who are exercising that right? (assuming they aren't breaking any laws, of course)
Holy Big Brother, background checking protesters. Alternately, the people behind the mosque refuse to reveal the identity of their financial backers.
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Re: Another one...

Post by slinky » 19th Aug, '10, 11:27

OK, to be fair, Pelosi is interested in who is behind the mosque financing too.

(I'm no Pelosi fan, as you might be able to tell :lol: )

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Re: Another one...

Post by Burbage » 19th Aug, '10, 11:39

One would presume muslims are behind the funding of the mosque.

Maybe there's something cathartic about it. In the same way, William the Conquerer built a cathedral at the site of the Battle of Hastings.

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Re: Another one...

Post by Lili Von Shtupp » 19th Aug, '10, 11:55

slinky wrote:OK, to be fair, Pelosi is interested in who is behind the mosque financing too.

(I'm no Pelosi fan, as you might be able to tell :lol: )
I'm totally with you on Pelosi, Slinks.
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Re: Another one...

Post by Joseph27 » 19th Aug, '10, 13:00

This debate is symbolic of America's increasing xenophobic attitude towards Islam. I am no fan of religion – so I am not jumping with joy at the concept of yet another mosque however the mosque is not to be constructed on ground zero... IT’S TWO BLOCKS AWAY and yet the image sold is that evil Muslims want to build a mosque in the exact WTC site.

This is the very frustrating part of America's contemporary political narrative - FOX news spews poison - RACIST poison - and its 24/7 -` it’s unsubstantiated and it’s repeated so often it becomes the defacto ‘truth’. So instead of defending religious rights, Obama is pushed into a poor position – even centralist repel at the concept of a mosque on top this hallowed ground and instead of defending religious freedom as per the constitution, they wallowing in trying to explain how they could be so insensitive. Obama has continued to be stumped by the Rights consistent attacks and his attempts at consensus building are futile in the face of assholes like Glen Beck. These people have no interest in anything but their ratings… I am sure that outside the studio they are quite reasonable people but on air they are dangerous and are sewing the seeds of violence.

Complaints about new mosques aren’t limited to New York – its America wide, whenever a new mosque is built; there are complaints and protests… hell it also applies in Australia… The chaser boys did a skit on building a mosque in inner city Sydney and the comments reflect a society very much at odds with Islam. As mentioned I am no fan of religion, but religious freedom is important in a society and it is under threat by these types of attacks.
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Re: Another one...

Post by Lili Von Shtupp » 19th Aug, '10, 15:41

Interesting comments. My very first thought when I heard about the mosque was that maybe the best thing to do is to take this Hallowed Ground, this Ground Zero hole in the ground and build a humble building that would house mosques, synagogues, churches, temples, basically places of worship for all of the world's major religions, and establish a center that would have them all come together to work towards a better understanding between them all.
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Re: Another one...

Post by Joseph27 » 19th Aug, '10, 15:49

I still like Donald Trumps initial suggestion - rebuild it as is with another floor... Thats sticking it to them.
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Re: Another one...

Post by T2K » 19th Aug, '10, 18:11

Lili Von Shtupp wrote:Interesting comments. My very first thought when I heard about the mosque was that maybe the best thing to do is to take this Hallowed Ground, this Ground Zero hole in the ground and build a humble building that would house mosques, synagogues, churches, temples, basically places of worship for all of the world's major religions, and establish a center that would have them all come together to work towards a better understanding between them all.
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Re: Another one...

Post by T2K » 19th Aug, '10, 18:14

It's private property and it's their right to build it where they want. Just like it's anyone else's right to walk around with a big poster of their "prophet" kissing a pig. Don't be surprised if both happen at the same spot.

We really need to wake up in West and A) recognize who we are and B) defend it.
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Re: Another one...

Post by Lili Von Shtupp » 19th Aug, '10, 19:11

T2K wrote:
Lili Von Shtupp wrote:Interesting comments. My very first thought when I heard about the mosque was that maybe the best thing to do is to take this Hallowed Ground, this Ground Zero hole in the ground and build a humble building that would house mosques, synagogues, churches, temples, basically places of worship for all of the world's major religions, and establish a center that would have them all come together to work towards a better understanding between them all.
Kumbayah, my lord, kumbayah. Then your Disney dream ended and you woke up, right?
Well, yeah, sort of... :lol:
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Re: Another one...

Post by BoD » 24th Aug, '10, 21:17

hmm.. this does amuse more than a little :)


http://politicalirony.com/2010/08/24/if ... t=FaceBook
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Re: Another one...

Post by Lili Von Shtupp » 24th Aug, '10, 21:34

:lol: Excellent!
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Re: Another one...

Post by FurBaby » 25th Aug, '10, 00:32

oh Jon Stewart, how i love you!

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