Morale dillemia?
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- Joseph27
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Morale dillemia?
As a parent, what do you do when you look at an ultrasound picture of your baby and see it's not quite right or as Ricky Gervais would say, a 'mong'? Fortunately I have never been in this position but I cannot see the slightest morale dilemma that this question poses - the choice I see is very clear and doctors in Singapore seem in agreement in their recommendation.
This is an argument I had recently and quite frankly I started it to get a rise out of a particular person who merrily rose to the occassion. As a curve ball, let me throw it into this forum... If you see on the ultrasound that your child will be down syndrome, blind, deaf, a ginger, whatever the infliction - would you continue with the pregnancy and leave it to chance 'gods will' - or would you start again.
This is an argument I had recently and quite frankly I started it to get a rise out of a particular person who merrily rose to the occassion. As a curve ball, let me throw it into this forum... If you see on the ultrasound that your child will be down syndrome, blind, deaf, a ginger, whatever the infliction - would you continue with the pregnancy and leave it to chance 'gods will' - or would you start again.
"truth is a group of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms; a sum of human relation which is poetically and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed and adored so that after a long time it is then codified in the binding canon."
- Snaffled
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Re: Morale dillemia?
"God's Will" or whatever has nothing to do with it, although certainly the main religions have strong views on this.
Is it a child at this stage? What happens if you don't look at the ultrasound, and then it is born blind - do you have the same moral dilemma? I have no freaking idea basically, and I hope I am never in this position.
Is it a child at this stage? What happens if you don't look at the ultrasound, and then it is born blind - do you have the same moral dilemma? I have no freaking idea basically, and I hope I am never in this position.
If there was a God, then why is my arse the perfect height for kicking?
- Fat Bob
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Re: Morale dillemia?
When are a sperm and an egg a child? Some think at the moment of conception, others only after it's been born, and there's a whole spectrum of inbetweens.
For me: I would think of the medical considerations and the quality of life issues post-birth (for both parents and child in both cases).
However, I'm not a father and I don't know the happiness of children. Though I can guess all the evilness of the little shits.
For me: I would think of the medical considerations and the quality of life issues post-birth (for both parents and child in both cases).
However, I'm not a father and I don't know the happiness of children. Though I can guess all the evilness of the little shits.
"Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life" ...Cecil Rhodes.
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Re: Morale dillemia?
I think it all depends upon the "infliction"that the child has. Some cases make it fairly straightforward, others it is not at all. As someone who has friends with Downies and other similar disabilities I can see both sides and it is never ever clear.
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- Lili Von Shtupp
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Re: Morale dillemia?
It's the parents' choice, however, if it is discovered that the fetus is afflicted with morale dillemia, it's not so straightforward. Wouldn't want the kid to bring everybody down.
A woman walked into a pub and asked the barman for a double entendre. So he gave it to her.
Re: Morale dillemia?
Joseph - personally - I'd terminate.
For both selfish and non(ish) selfish reasons.
Non-selfishly - this world can be tough enough a lot of the time and being a kid is not always easy and I wouldn't want to bring someone into this world that is going to have a tougher time than the rest of us. And yes, I know many kids born with Downs etc lead rich and happy lives but I wouldn't do it.
Selfishly - the scientist in me says I can make another one and I don't want to be caring for my child at 90 and them 60.
So if it was something that's serious enough to be detected in utero and would seriously affect the childs and my life, I would terminate.
For both selfish and non(ish) selfish reasons.
Non-selfishly - this world can be tough enough a lot of the time and being a kid is not always easy and I wouldn't want to bring someone into this world that is going to have a tougher time than the rest of us. And yes, I know many kids born with Downs etc lead rich and happy lives but I wouldn't do it.
Selfishly - the scientist in me says I can make another one and I don't want to be caring for my child at 90 and them 60.
So if it was something that's serious enough to be detected in utero and would seriously affect the childs and my life, I would terminate.
Remember, Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but backwards and in high heels.
- Joseph27
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Re: Morale dillemia?
We all seem to be in agreement - fortunately I have never been confronted with such a dillemia. I had a neighbor who had a deformed child who never progressed past the age of 5 mentally. The difficult part to deal with is if my 5 year old suddenly stopped developing mentally even though the body keeps growing. I see the unborn baby as a no brainer and wouldnt hesitate to start again, however with the 5 year you have already developed a very close connection.
Well this has been no fun - the board is too rationale and intelligent... maybe we need to invite in a fundamentalist christian
Well this has been no fun - the board is too rationale and intelligent... maybe we need to invite in a fundamentalist christian
"truth is a group of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms; a sum of human relation which is poetically and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed and adored so that after a long time it is then codified in the binding canon."
- cromasaig
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Re: Morale dillemia?
Pendants corner. Now.Lili Von Shtupp wrote:It's the parents' choice, however, if it is discovered that the fetus is afflicted with morale dillemia, it's not so straightforward. Wouldn't want the kid to bring everybody down.
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Re: Morale dillemia?
Of all mammals,humans are unique in not abandoning their young if they're imperfect. It's not instinct that makes humans do it, it's societal conditioning.
“The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.” – Henry David Thoreau
Re: Morale dillemia?
so here's a twist, your 5 year old is in an accident and stops advancing mentally, do you terminate?
Re: Morale dillemia?
canuck wrote:so here's a twist, your 5 year old is in an accident and stops advancing mentally, do you terminate?
I know you're joking but there is little more devastating than this. You will never be carefree again and your life will be made much much worse by the attitudes of the 'normals' .
- Scrummy Mummy
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Re: Morale dillemia?
I'm glad this a "serious discussion" and not in "general batter" (sic). I've a couple of friends with autistic kids and I find debating such stuff for fun and to get a rise just a tad tasteless.
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Re: Morale dillemia?
I'm a big proponent of a patient's right to have a dignified death, assisted suicide is the current term I believe. However, there must be patient consent, and that's not possible for a 5-year old (or mental age 5 year old) person.
And yes, I can't see many more things that would be as devastating as that scenario.
And yes, I can't see many more things that would be as devastating as that scenario.
"Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life" ...Cecil Rhodes.
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Re: Morale dillemia?
Nor could I - if you lose someone you remember and you move on, if they continue on, you still love them though your life alters dramatically. If you are ever dealt that hand I dont know if you have a choice other than to be a good human being.
I just watched Love and Other drugs - the guys new girlfriend has parkinsons and there is a very confronting scene when he attends a meeting and talks to the husband of a sufferer. Interesting film and quite enjoyable
I just watched Love and Other drugs - the guys new girlfriend has parkinsons and there is a very confronting scene when he attends a meeting and talks to the husband of a sufferer. Interesting film and quite enjoyable
"truth is a group of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms; a sum of human relation which is poetically and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed and adored so that after a long time it is then codified in the binding canon."
Re: Morale dillemia?
It's strange how our society has no difficulty in putting dogs and horses 'out of their misery' and yet cannot extend this simple right to humans. It is a glaring omission on the statute of humans rights. The right to choose the manner of your own death.
But this, of course, is much more difficult when someone else has to do the choosing. There are many people who have enjoyed life to the full with the most astounding disabilities. Why not ask some of them this question?
But this, of course, is much more difficult when someone else has to do the choosing. There are many people who have enjoyed life to the full with the most astounding disabilities. Why not ask some of them this question?
Last edited by Burbage on 15th Jan, '11, 07:53, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Morale dillemia?
Lili Von Shtupp wrote:It's the parents' choice, however, if it is discovered that the fetus is afflicted with morale dillemia, it's not so straightforward. Wouldn't want the kid to bring everybody down.
As far as the actual subject, I think I'm of the opinion already expressed - this really isn't the best subject to bring up just to 'get a rise out of people' because when you do that, you really have no idea what has happened or is happening to the people you are baiting with regards to the subject.
It's a serious and valid moral dilemma, but I just think it's a subject where really knowing your audience is very important.
- Kooky
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Re: Morale dillemia?
Y'see, this is what happens when he tries to stop the cut & paste jobs.
Re: Morale dillemia?
Yes, we actually read his posts.Kooky wrote:Y'see, this is what happens when he tries to stop the cut & paste jobs.
- Joseph27
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Re: Morale dillemia?
The purpose was not only to get a rise - through discussion and debate we can garner knowledge and perspective. My younger sister is a social worker and counselor who spent some time with mongs. When she went in she had a very different perspective and we have subsequently discussed and from that I have learnt a lot. I had a brother who was born with deformities and if he had lived beyond his brief stay on this planet he would have been a great strain and never developed mentally; if he had lived it would have probably torn the family apart and my mother would never have had my younger sister who has gone on to spend her life helping people. Through that context I ask this question. It was extremely painful losing a family member for all of us however the alternative was infinitely worse.slinky wrote:Lili Von Shtupp wrote:It's the parents' choice, however, if it is discovered that the fetus is afflicted with morale dillemia, it's not so straightforward. Wouldn't want the kid to bring everybody down.
As far as the actual subject, I think I'm of the opinion already expressed - this really isn't the best subject to bring up just to 'get a rise out of people' because when you do that, you really have no idea what has happened or is happening to the people you are baiting with regards to the subject.
It's a serious and valid moral dilemma, but I just think it's a subject where really knowing your audience is very important.
Physical disability is a tough impediment to deal with however when you have consciousness you are alive, Cogito ergo sum, through determination, people overcome their physical environment, be it the one legged mountain climber or whatever other countless example you care to use. When you lose that ability to think, to understand your environment, to simply be, and descend to a state of physically existing without consciousness, you are worth less than cattle robbing society of valuable resources. When you remove a loving god from the equation what is society’s interest in perpetuating the lives of the mentally retarded? That is a question I am happy to be rebuked on and attacked for but most especially contradicted and shown the error of my logic.
"truth is a group of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms; a sum of human relation which is poetically and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed and adored so that after a long time it is then codified in the binding canon."
Re: Morale dillemia?
My second cousin is a 36-year-old man with the mental capacity of a 3-year-old. Throw in the physical urges of a grown man, and the need for a 24-hr nanny (difficult to find a male nanny) and you got yourself a disaster. He is physically strong, and he almost raped his nanny on several occasions. His siblings now dread the responsibility of caring for their brother when their parents are gone. I wouldn't blame them, I would dread it too.Joseph27 wrote:We all seem to be in agreement - fortunately I have never been confronted with such a dillemia. I had a neighbor who had a deformed child who never progressed past the age of 5 mentally. The difficult part to deal with is if my 5 year old suddenly stopped developing mentally even though the body keeps growing. I see the unborn baby as a no brainer and wouldnt hesitate to start again, however with the 5 year you have already developed a very close connection.
Well this has been no fun - the board is too rationale and intelligent... maybe we need to invite in a fundamentalist christian
His parents didn't terminate the pregnancy simply because at the time, it was not a choice. I think if I was in the same situation but actually have a choice, I would terminate the pregnancy. It's just kinder for the child and parents.
Last edited by nev on 16th Jan, '11, 12:05, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Morale dillemia?
Girl on my old hockey team had to terminate and go through birth process several months into pregnancy. Too late it was determined the baby was so sick with multiple diseases and deformities, it wasn't clear that it would resemble human. They made the correct choice, actually had no choice really, but oh god, through other friends I know it was the most difficult decision of their life and painful beyond my imagining, add to that the pain of being their first child. This is a topic no one else ever should have an opinion to project onto a couple, it's the domain of the parents that will be responsible for that life, should it continue. In addition to that case, quite a few extremely close female friends and family gone through miscarriage, and abortions for that matter - this is never ever ever something taken lightly.
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