Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by Bender » 7th Mar, '12, 00:07

Fat Bob wrote:There's a lot of noise in the UK press (OK, maybe just the Torygraph) about how the current political leadership are planning to allow same-sex marriage.
-----
Can someone explain why it's such a big issue one way or another?
...because it sells newspapers?
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by Kooky » 7th Mar, '12, 05:50

I appreciate your Catholic roots, baloo, but personally I don't link the term "marriage" with religion. My first marriage took place in a registry office, and my second on Lawn 36. The number of weddings I see celebrants conducting all over Sydney, I think plenty of people see it the same way I do.

Bob, if those people (the "celebrants" in Oz) don't want to perform same-sex ceremonies, that's up to them - they can turn down business as they wish. (I believe religious officials can already say no to anybody they like?)

Why is it such a big issue? Maybe that's down to the kind of people running our countries. Why do they always seem to be religious fruitloops? :? (Surveys have shown that Australian people are very cool with same-sex marriage, but it seems our pollies are not.)

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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by canuck » 7th Mar, '12, 06:38

So what they're/you are really fighting over who owns the rights to the word 'marriage'?

I bet the fight won't be so hard for all the crap that comes with the word divorce.

Just bring in common law,,, living as a couple for 1 year, you have to get lawyers in to split yer shit up.... Yer wedlocked in the eyes of the law.... Which means you've pledged to pay lawyers to break you apart if necessary....

Should gay people be allowed to get married? Sure, they have been for generations....
Is it really about in the eyes of the law or is it religon??? I have to say a lot of arguement seems to be about who owns religon.

Oh and marrying someone doesn't defacto give you rights to thier kids... Nor should it,, look at the step dad who raped and killed his daughter in canada.....

Marriage doesn't make you a better person, marriage doesn't make your relationship stronger, marriage is symbolic gesture generally done in a church or Bali, but who really cares?

However, Marriage in the eye of the law is a contract,,, so the real question should be... should gay people be allowed to contract themselves to each other? Definitely!
.... Bring in the lawyers, get the red tape, divorce laws, lawyers and all.... Why should only heteros have to have divorce statistics?

So, should it be called marriage?

Why not, you can marry two pieces of steel together and no one flaps about that...

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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by Fat Bob » 7th Mar, '12, 07:48

canuck wrote: However, Marriage in the eye of the law is a contract,,, so the real question should be... should gay people be allowed to contract themselves to each other? Definitely!
I think I'm concerned that such an amount of time is being put into this when laws already exist in the UK to allow hetero and homosexuals contract themselves to each other.

And disagree totally with the common law aspect. Living together for a year (or any other stipulated amount of time) should not bestow any rights by either person on the other. Having default contracts come into being is a dangerous thing.
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by baloo » 7th Mar, '12, 09:48

Kooky wrote:I appreciate your Catholic roots, baloo, but personally I don't link the term "marriage" with religion. My first marriage took place in a registry office, and my second on Lawn 36. The number of weddings I see celebrants conducting all over Sydney, I think plenty of people see it the same way I do.
My Catholic roots allows me to see both sides of the debate. As I said earlier, as fair as the religions are concerned, marriage is a religious institution that the governments have co-opted. If you disagree with them, fine, but that's what they believe and that's where they are coming from and they will fight hard to protect what they consider is their institution. Taking them on would be a mistake IMO.

Most surveys show Australians don't really care one way or another. Don't jump to a conclusion that it means most Aussies are cool with it. If a plebiscite was put to the public asking that Gay Marriage be written into law, I doubt it would pass. It's one of the reasons the lobby groups are trying to push parliament to pass the law as opposed to bringing it to the people. If it was worded that all civil unions be afforded the same rights across Australia then it would have a better chance.

As for the politicians, they'll do what it takes to get them re-elected. If it's such a big issue for them then their internal polling must be telling them that pushing same sex marriages through would be detrimental to their career.
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by baloo » 7th Mar, '12, 09:50

Fat Bob wrote:And disagree totally with the common law aspect. Living together for a year (or any other stipulated amount of time) should not bestow any rights by either person on the other. Having default contracts come into being is a dangerous thing.
I agree. Well at least to the point where 1 year is way too short as far as I am concerned. But there should be a point where a partnership has gone on for long enough that it does become recognised as a partnership/union in the eyes of the law when it comes to dissolving the partnership.
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by Kooky » 7th Mar, '12, 09:57

baloo wrote:
Kooky wrote: <snip>As for the politicians, they'll do what it takes to get them re-elected. If it's such a big issue for them then their internal polling must be telling them that pushing same sex marriages through would be detrimental to their career.
Yeah - Julia recently had dinner with 3 gay couples after GetUp bid for the dinner at a charity auction (inspired!). She has been reported as saying marriage equality is "inevitable". Nice bit of fence-sitting :)

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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by daffodil » 7th Mar, '12, 12:01

Indeed, which is why Julia agreed to a conscience vote by the ALP last year, even though she is on record as being anti-gay marriage herself.
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by Tas » 7th Mar, '12, 12:44

I dont know if I agree it is fence sitting. Her personal opinion is that she is anti gay marriage, but it is not her role to simply make decisions on what she believes, she represents more than that. Thus I have more respect that she chose the position to allow for a conscience vote to allow the democratic processs work properly for once, and not rely on party lines. Unlike Tony Abbott who has always let his personal opinion over ride his role as a representative - you only have to look at how he acted with regard to the abortion pill RU486, and will not allow his party a conscious vote. (Now if Turnbull was leading what do you think the position might be....)
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by Kooky » 7th Mar, '12, 13:02

This much is true - Tony scares me in relation to much more than gay rights.

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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by baloo » 7th Mar, '12, 13:48

Yet Tony probably has strong support from coalition supporters for the stances he takes.
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by Kooky » 7th Mar, '12, 14:49

I don't really want to turn this into a Tony bashing thread but he does himself no favours with women or the gay vote.

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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by slinky » 7th Mar, '12, 15:08

Julia being personally against gay marriage (or anyone else, for that matter) brings up a point that pretty much baffles me and that is: if you are going to deny one group something that another group can have, aren't you saying one group is basically 'less than' the other? How is that acceptable?

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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by baloo » 7th Mar, '12, 15:30

I wonder if polygamists (sp?) Are lining up ready to challenge the marriage laws as soon as the same sex bill passes.
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by T2K » 8th Mar, '12, 13:28

Lili Von Shtupp wrote:But that doesn't address the human rights issue, though. By definition, marriage can really be a union of anything.
Nothing in my suggestion is prohibiting two people from living together, loving each other, having kids or enjoying the same legal benefits as a man and woman married to each other. Marriage in this context is clearly defined as the legal union of one man and one woman. You can "marry" a jet engine to a kayak, but it shouldn't be legally recognized at the local registry of marriages (nor will it be particuarly seaworthy, but that's another story).

The prohibition on misusing the term is no infringement on human rights.
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by Joseph27 » 8th Mar, '12, 18:41

Tas she is unmarried atheist former student radical - for her to claim she is against gay marriage is disingenuous and simply shows what lengths she will go to for political expediency.

Of course you will have all sorts of claims on gay marriage and how it is somehow against the natural order.... Mr Frothy Rick Santorum argues that gay marriage leads to bestiality.... others say it undermines our entire society.... Over 50% of hetro marriages end in divorce - let's face how many others are simply little more than codependent couples staying together because its too hard to leave - its hardly a sacred life time ritual. Regardless though - deliberately excluded gay couples is unacceptable and quite frankly those opposing it are on the same side of history as those who opposed every other civil liberty - there is always an argument to oppose what is right and fair and the same people are usually there holding their bible and warning of the dire consequences of doing the right thing.
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by Fat Bob » 8th Mar, '12, 22:49

But J27 - in the UK, those laws exist to allow civil partnerships between those of the same sex. These have all the same civil rights as marriages between those of the opposite sex.

You point out it's a civil liberty: they have that liberty already, why do they need anything more?
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by avatarless » 8th Mar, '12, 23:30

FB,

In the US they are fighting for the right of use of the term "marriage". The "separate but equal" arrangement of civil union is more than just stigma: government may be required to recognize the two as equal, but private parties, such as insurers, are not. No sure how that translates in the UK.

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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by Joseph27 » 9th Mar, '12, 06:24

Fat Bob wrote:But J27 - in the UK, those laws exist to allow civil partnerships between those of the same sex. These have all the same civil rights as marriages between those of the opposite sex.

You point out it's a civil liberty: they have that liberty already, why do they need anything more?
Sure you can still ride on the bus, you just need to sit in the back of it. A legal recognition of same sex marriage on equal footing to tradition notions of marriage forces all insurers, health care providers and employers to end their discrimination. Furthermore a modern democracy should not deliberately practise open discrimination - the various religions don't need to recognise it, but the state does.
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by Fat Bob » 9th Mar, '12, 08:17

Ah, well, as I started about the UK, then I can continue about the UK.

From Wiki, the font of all knowledge:

"Civil partnerships in the United Kingdom, granted under the Civil Partnership Act 2004, give same-sex couples rights and responsibilities identical to civil marriage.[1] Civil partners are entitled to the same property rights as married opposite-sex couples, the same exemption as married couples on inheritance tax, social security and pension benefits, and also the ability to get parental responsibility for a partner's children,[2] as well as responsibility for reasonable maintenance of one's partner and their children, tenancy rights, full life insurance recognition, next of kin rights in hospitals, and others. There is a formal process for dissolving partnerships akin to divorce."

So they have those rights in the UK. So what is the big issue? Why are gay people (or activists) and the Coalition government attempting to make gay marriages legal. There are equivalent rights in the UK and surely that is the issue, not the terminology?
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by Tas » 9th Mar, '12, 08:30

Joseph27 wrote:Tas she is unmarried atheist former student radical
you forgot to say childless
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by baloo » 9th Mar, '12, 09:56

Joseph27 wrote:Tas she is unmarried atheist former student radical - for her to claim she is against gay marriage is disingenuous and simply shows what lengths she will go to for political expediency.

Of course you will have all sorts of claims on gay marriage and how it is somehow against the natural order.... Mr Frothy Rick Santorum argues that gay marriage leads to bestiality.... others say it undermines our entire society.... Over 50% of hetro marriages end in divorce - let's face how many others are simply little more than codependent couples staying together because its too hard to leave - its hardly a sacred life time ritual. Regardless though - deliberately excluded gay couples is unacceptable and quite frankly those opposing it are on the same side of history as those who opposed every other civil liberty - there is always an argument to oppose what is right and fair and the same people are usually there holding their bible and warning of the dire consequences of doing the right thing.
I put liberal rants like these in the same bucket and conservative rants, like Bolt readers. There is no difference when people go off name calling and not cutting through the emotive crap to debate the issue.

I swear society is becoming more and more fanatical.
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by daffodil » 9th Mar, '12, 11:50

Tas wrote:
Joseph27 wrote:Tas she is unmarried atheist former student radical
you forgot to say childless
And Welsh. Nail in her coffin, really.
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by baloo » 9th Mar, '12, 11:52

daffodil wrote:
Tas wrote:
you forgot to say childless
And Welsh. Nail in her coffin, really.
Nah, the fact she is a ranga is her biggest failing. Everything else is just window dressing.
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Re: Gay marriage - what's it all about then?

Post by daffodil » 9th Mar, '12, 11:55

Surely her living-in-sin partner could fix that....
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