Population control

Fat Bob · Post by **Fat Bob** » 28th Jun, '12, 09:09

The sponsored hit in google for "The Singularity" is about Artificial Intelligence. Excellent, we'll all be living our lives in our heads, with tubes supplying us the nourishment and wires supply the nerve stimulants we require.

We could make a movie about that.....

avatarless · Post by **avatarless** » 28th Jun, '12, 10:13

more like we will no longer be human. machines will become sophisticated enough to simulate the brain and we will all just upload our minds and live forever. would sure make it a lot easier to explore space! i'm amazed how many serious people take this seriously. ray kurzweil insists this will happen in the next 20 years! of course, he'll be dead within 20 years, so, for him, promoting the singularity is like a modern version of pascal's wager.

Joseph27 · Post by **Joseph27** » 28th Jun, '12, 10:27

China made a fundamental error with their means of population control and it will haunt for a long time to come. Still the concept of slowing growth wasn't all bad. What would have been more interesting is a full on eugenics program that demands that all parents gain a license to breed where(in approval would be based on their genetic makeup. The disabled, the retarded could then be totally excluded - you could even attempt with China's numbers to aim at greater height, intellectual capacity and a comparable quota of males to females where females are protected equally (and abortions are only legal outside of the quota system or when the fetus shows signs of being deformed) - really try to customize a better more capable society.

Yes I know this is repulsive to the core but lets face it - China has been aborted baby girls for 30 years, they have a gender gap that is very concerning and they have villages where the young have simply left. A government sometimes needs to pull levers - this program could give them that leverage to gain greater influence over the next generation.

Morrolan · Post by **Morrolan** » 28th Jun, '12, 10:36

avatarless wrote:more like we will no longer be human. machines will become sophisticated enough to simulate the brain and we will all just upload our minds and live forever. would sure make it a lot easier to explore space! i'm amazed how many serious people take this seriously. ray kurzweil insists this will happen in the next 20 years! of course, he'll be dead within 20 years, so, for him, promoting the singularity is like a modern version of pascal's wager.

we are the Borg.... prepare to be assimilated...

Scrummy Mummy · Post by **Scrummy Mummy** » 28th Jun, '12, 12:32

I read this book a few years ago.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Lands-Charm ... 782&sr=8-1

He mentions how, a few decades ago, Singapore used to pay couples with less than O levels to be sterilised.

(For a lot of us, that would probably include our parents/grandparents etc.)

Personally I think that's awful, but I don't expect that any of us will change our views on this kind of thing.

Fat Bob · Post by **Fat Bob** » 28th Jun, '12, 15:03

I don't think the choice of state-sponsored sterilisation of under-educated people is awful, as it was a choice. And it served Singapore's purpose at the time: every country suffers with what to do with it's lowest social classes, Singapore reduced those numbers with effective policies.

I don't think this impinges on any Fundamental Rights, as it's a choice people can take. Not everyone has to go it.

avatarless · Post by **avatarless** » 28th Jun, '12, 20:12

Morrolan wrote: we are the Borg.... prepare to be assimilated...

Right, in a post-singularity world it all comes down to intellectual property law, doesn't it? Who would own your files? Slavery would be commonplace. Someone could make a clone army of you. It's not like IP law is really enforceable. Or, what if you become infected with a virus that turns you into a three year old who just really wants a pony and never stops throwing a temper tantrum? Or a salmon? Or a mosquito? If you run into a clone of yourself, would you want to have sex with it?

Morrolan · Post by **Morrolan** » 3rd Jul, '12, 09:03

avatarless wrote:
Morrolan wrote: we are the Borg.... prepare to be assimilated...

Right, in a post-singularity world it all comes down to intellectual property law, doesn't it? Who would own your files? Slavery would be commonplace. Someone could make a clone army of you. It's not like IP law is really enforceable. Or, what if you become infected with a virus that turns you into a three year old who just really wants a pony and never stops throwing a temper tantrum? Or a salmon? Or a mosquito? If you run into a clone of yourself, would you want to have sex with it?

cloning is cool, but we haven't solved the problem of mind/memory downloads yet, so i won't be able to transfer my id into a clone of myself, making it a relatively useless technology. besides, a clone grows as fast as a normal human body. just imagine having the mind of a 90 year old in a newborn's body, waiting to grow up and get past puberty.

and then: how do you define an adult? by body or by mind? if you have the mind and memories of a 90 year old in a 5 year old body, is that person a minor or an adult? if a minor, who are it's parents/guardians? if an adult, how is it going to look after itself? drive a car? drink alcohol? what about sex (ye gods!)?

T2K · Post by **T2K** » 3rd Jul, '12, 14:34

Any real solution to most of the planet's problems that would result in "saving our world" (as the recent song being over-played says) would require one little thing first: authoritarian global government.

Without that, it's all just chatter.

Expect lots more chatter.

Bender · Post by **Bender** » 3rd Jul, '12, 17:10

Genetic screening/selection. A license to breed based on meeting a set of parameters. If we're going to limit population, we may as well focus on quality rather than quantity.

Anyone seen Gattaca or In Time?

And now I'll crawl back into my hole.

Fat Bob · Post by **Fat Bob** » 3rd Jul, '12, 18:03

I suppose in a larger society than Singapore, then limiting by some sort of parameter would be important. What are those parameters, and would it be as simple as meeting those parameters, or would meeting the parameters be only the first hurdle? What about a lottery AFTER people have met the set of parameters? With only 50% of those meeting the parameters getting the breeding license?

All sounds very nefarious and almost Nazi like, but without such reductions we're only going to continue reducing the world's resources.

T2K · Post by **T2K** » 3rd Jul, '12, 22:38

How would any of this be enforced without, again, an authoritarian global government? To do this on a national level for only a few countries would be ineffective overall.

Fat Bob · Post by **Fat Bob** » 3rd Jul, '12, 23:23

Very good point indeed. So, is the policy in China so bad after all?

avatarless · Post by **avatarless** » 4th Jul, '12, 07:41

Morrolan wrote:
... just imagine having the mind of a 90 year old in a newborn's body, waiting to grow up and get past puberty.

and then: how do you define an adult? by body or by mind? if you have the mind and memories of a 90 year old in a 5 year old body, is that person a minor or an adult? if a minor, who are it's parents/guardians? if an adult, how is it going to look after itself? drive a car? drink alcohol? what about sex (ye gods!)?

Can you imagine the accumulated wisdom of a 500 yr old in a brain with the plasticity of a child? That would be awesome! We spend 20 years learning, 20 yrs working and then enter a slow cognitive decline (sometimes not so slow)- what a waste..

Morrolan · Post by **Morrolan** » 4th Jul, '12, 07:59

avatarless wrote:
Morrolan wrote:
... just imagine having the mind of a 90 year old in a newborn's body, waiting to grow up and get past puberty.

and then: how do you define an adult? by body or by mind? if you have the mind and memories of a 90 year old in a 5 year old body, is that person a minor or an adult? if a minor, who are it's parents/guardians? if an adult, how is it going to look after itself? drive a car? drink alcohol? what about sex (ye gods!)?
Can you imagine the accumulated wisdom of a 500 yr old in a brain with the plasticity of a child? That would be awesome! We spend 20 years learning, 20 yrs working and then enter a slow cognitive decline (sometimes not so slow)- what a waste..

500 years of accumulated cynicism and depravity, you mean?

there's some scary shit to consider, there. not everyone is a nice person, and some very not nice people would be the ones with the financial means to participate.

slinky · Post by **slinky** » 4th Jul, '12, 08:49

Fat Bob wrote:Very good point indeed. So, is the policy in China so bad after all?

In theory, the Chinese 1 child policy probably isn't so awful, from purely a space and finite resources available standpoint. It's the fact that the majority apparently want that 1 child to be male is what is causing - and will continue to cause - big problems. I've read that in some parts of China the male to female ratios are already around 2:1. Until the selective abortion or abandoning of female babies stops completely, they will (continue to) have a real mess on their hands.

Of course, if a large number of men can't find a wife because there aren't enough women to go around, so to speak, I guess the population rate will drop, won't it?

Lili Von Shtupp · Post by **Lili Von Shtupp** » 4th Jul, '12, 08:58

As long as the Chinese government expects the elderly to be cared for by the first born son, you will have this preference for male offspring. However, I think if China were to implement policies that would encourage/enable people to provide for their own old age, you'll see the male to female gap narrow.

baloo · Post by **baloo** » 4th Jul, '12, 09:54

T2K wrote:How would any of this be enforced without, again, an authoritarian global government? To do this on a national level for only a few countries would be ineffective overall.

Global Government is key.

Let's call it the Population Action Party

Sardonicus · Post by **Sardonicus** » 6th Jul, '12, 20:43

Looking forward to when Elysium comes out.

baloo wrote:
T2K wrote:How would any of this be enforced without, again, an authoritarian global government? To do this on a national level for only a few countries would be ineffective overall.
Global Government is key.

Let's call it the Population Action Party

cromasaig · Post by **cromasaig** » 7th Jul, '12, 17:15

This discussion scares the crap out of me.

Can't help noticing that some of the people advocating the state's right to decide whether or how many children people are allowed to have, are the same people huffing about the 'nanny state' when it comes to other, comparatively insignificant, issues.

Of course it's a matter of degree (and I include myself in the criticism), but we're all for state control, it seems - over those other people...

canuck · Post by **canuck** » 8th Jul, '12, 01:35

I'm not.... No nannies for me....
I am counting on natural disasters, disease, war, and optimistically one day education.. And a realisation that more, more, more is not better, it's just more...

T2K · Post by **T2K** » 9th Jul, '12, 01:53

Since authoritarian global government is probably one of the few things, if not the only thing, that we can all agree that we DON'T want...meaningful population control is not going to happen. Nanny states, unfortunately, are favored by some.

Aliya · Post by **Aliya** » 20th Jul, '12, 08:33

Adopt from a third world country - worked for me!

stargazerLily · Post by **stargazerLily** » 20th Jul, '12, 23:59

[quote="Sardonicus"]Looking forward to when Elysium comes out.

I think we're getting somewhere with this now...hehe

When's it forecasted for...let's mix that up with a lil greek mythology...

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