The Gun Debate

Want to debate a topic seriously ? Well this is the place The Singaporum gets as serious as it can get.

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The Gun Debate

Post by baloo » 15th Dec, '12, 13:52

Thought it best we have a dedicated thread to what seems to be a regular debate on here.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by baloo » 15th Dec, '12, 13:58

I really don't know if this is serious or not. I'm, starting to think the gun owners lobby are as our of touch with society as the intelligent design crowd.

Executive Director of Gun Owners of America Says Armed Teachers Would Have Stopped Newtown Shooting
Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered. This tragedy underscores the urgency of getting rid of gun bans in school zones. The only thing accomplished by gun free zones is to insure that mass murderers can slay more before they are finally confronted by someone with a gun.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Lili Von Shtupp » 15th Dec, '12, 14:56

What's the matter, Baloo, you miss T2K? :D
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by baloo » 15th Dec, '12, 15:06

Just preparing for the inevitable :p
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Lichtgestalt » 15th Dec, '12, 15:21

Guns don't kill people, people kill people

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by baloo » 15th Dec, '12, 16:31

Banning the sale of guns isn't hard. (except for the multitude of constitutional challenges that will create)
Getting citizens to hand their guns in can work. It did in Australia and people were financially compensated.

Getting the criminals to hand their guns in won't happen.

I do wonder what the solution is in the US because I think it's reached a point were banning them now and trying to take them out of society will just mean every tom, dick and harriet two-bit crim has one.

Then the gun lobby is strong and spilling heaps of cash into lobbyists.

What % of the US population actually want a ban on guns ? And is it broken down at all ? i.e. % that want a total ban, %$ that want an assault rifle ban, % that want automatic gun ban, % that want handgun ban ?

If the majority of the population want some sort of ban or control then it could happen, no matter how difficult. But if it's close to 40% wanting to keep the right to bear arms, and any arms they want, then it's a pointless debate.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Tas » 15th Dec, '12, 21:14

My first thought was wish the guy could spell ensure bfore public release. Guess my prioritie are off...

Edit: an eoff, 6 beverages later my fingers were off
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by T2K » 15th Dec, '12, 22:58

I don't imagine many of us will have changed our minds since the last time. Or time before that. Or time before that. Or...you get the picture.

Countries with about the same or more legally owned guns per capita have much less gun violence than the US (Canada, Israel, Switzerland). Countries with complete gun bans or much more restrictive gun laws than the US have much more gun violence (Brazil, South Africa). Guns are obviously not the relevant variable in this matter. The marked increase in the US of defective people willing to commit murder, that's the matter at hand. It's not one we can discuss effectively though, knee-jerk platitudes are easier.

FYI - as a 20 year old, it was illegal for this nutjob to possess the pistols he used in the murder. Not to mention the fact that he was willing to murder his own mother to get them.

Baloo - you are correct that even if we repealed the 2nd Amendment entirely and had a Nazi / Soviet style house to house kick-down-the-doors confiscation effort - criminals and nutjobs would still be completely armed as they are today. Unlike Australia, we have long and porous land borders with gun owning neighbors and smuggling and distribution efforts in place. Guns would just be another inventory item next to heroin and cocaine and marijuana.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Lichtgestalt » 16th Dec, '12, 01:30

42 kills in West Germany..... Hmmmmmm... and how many in East Germany?

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Kooky » 16th Dec, '12, 07:15

Owned.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Morrolan » 16th Dec, '12, 12:56

Kooky wrote:Owned.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Morrolan » 16th Dec, '12, 13:09

i agree with T2K that there seems to be a societal element to these rampages that gun ownership by itself doesn't explain. if that isn't addressed along with anything else, the problem won't go away (see for instance in China where maniacs go to elementary schools to stab and kill as many small children they can get their hands on); it will just take another form.
i do wonder why the fuck this woman thought she needed what is, for all intents and purposes, a dumbed-down assault rifle.

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by skank-la » 16th Dec, '12, 13:30

My 1st Post on FaceBook right after it happened:
The mall; now the kids-makes me sick. I had my 1st rifle at 12 so I'm no 'pantywaist' but I'm tired of all the cowards in DC who are scared of the NRA. Ask any cop -we need to ban all semi-automatic guns & extended magazines.Cops here in LA also now regularly execute innocent people cuz they (rightly so) are scared of getting killed by one these ijiots. Nowhere else in the world does this shit happen on a daily basis

Another Post I made an hour ago:
every culture, every country has crazy people. but in other countries, it may be stabbing, injuring a few people or at most one or two killed, may be once every 10 or 20 yrs. here in US, we have readily available to anybody high capacity weaponry, 100 round reload, multi-cartridge, semi automatic..you'd think this is Navy SEAL equipment...except they not fighting Al Quada, not a "tyrannical government", but killing little boys and girls (yesterday), killing people out Christmas shopping (2 days ago), killing people watching a movie (few months ago) and the killing is massive, 10, 20 is "normal". killing by guns is no longer "news" unless it is massive OK Corral style. we call this "american exceptionalism". only in AMerica, amazing.
Guns would just be another inventory item next to heroin and cocaine and marijuana.
What planet are you on? The US is the source of / supplies all the guns that keep the heroin, cocaine & marijuana gangs that have turned Mexico into a failed Narco State armed to the teeth with the latest & greatest in firepower. Watch 'Sons of Anarchy; yes its fiction but firmly based on the current state of affairs


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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Joseph27 » 16th Dec, '12, 16:25

Let me repost this here - how about a 1000% tax on ammunition and gun powder.... there is nothing the gun lobby can do to say its unconstitutional, as with health care (ITS A TAX AND THAT IS UP TO POTUS). If a 9mm shell cost $30 to $50 a piece and you make a container of gun powder at least $1000 for a standard box - you limit the amount a person can physically stock pile. The only exceptions should be for practice ranges which will require very tight controls. Sounds like a workable plan - not as good as removing automatic weapons but take the fight to the NRA

I don't know how much of a difference it would make at the end of the day - but its a good start
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by T2K » 16th Dec, '12, 17:10

The first school massacre in the US, 1927: 40+ killed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
China knife mass murders: 20+ killed
Japan knife mass murders: 10+ killed
Various mass murders with guns in countries with tightly regulated gun ownership like Finland, Norway, Germany, etc: 100+ killed

The common element is nutjobs. They ARE NOT going away. To the contrary, instead of just killing themselves, they seem to be proliferating.

Israel had a problem with frequent attacks on students / schools. They dealt with it rationally and logically, they protected every school with armed guards and staff.

Skank - I see machineguns, hand grenades and rocket launchers being used in the narco-wars in Mexico. You know those don't come from the US market. Mexican criminals have no shortage of sources for small arms. If there was demand in the US criminal market, they would supply it - as you well know. Every city and town in the US has cocaine, which originates from outside of Mexico.

J27 - Your 1000% tax would, as above, encourage our existing black market for guns and ammunition. Again, porous borders and smuggling and distribution networks are already in place. Lots of ammunition is made in Mexico. Lots of guns and ammunition already in the US, and an 800% profit margin (200% less than the tax) would be a great incentive to sell.

Criminals and nutjobs would not have any shortage. We need to protect places where nutjobs are likely to want to "make others feel their pain."
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Kooky » 16th Dec, '12, 17:13

The common element is not just "nutjobs", it seems. It''s testosterone - in 61 of 62 killing sprees, at least.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... otings-map

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by baloo » 16th Dec, '12, 21:43

Thinking more from the societal aspect, I think we've gone way overboard with the "me" mentality. There is no community anyone. Everything is about the individual, the rights of the individual surpasses the needs of the community. Not only does that eliminate the sense of community and with it the sense of responsibility, but its also going to cause a lot more people dealing with issues to fall trout the cracks and in the worst case want to make a massive "me" statement.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Lili Von Shtupp » 16th Dec, '12, 23:08

A friend posted this on FB, a blog post by a mother who is desperately trying to cope with a child that she is terrified will be the next Adam Lanza. It's a heartbreaking story from someone who is genuinely concerned.

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.sg/2 ... kable.html
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by avatarless » 16th Dec, '12, 23:12

This is a nice blog post addressing the issue of homicide rates and gun ownership. Can't really address rare events like mass-murder, but a worthwhile read.

http://globalsociology.com/2012/12/15/o ... point-out/

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Morrolan » 17th Dec, '12, 07:55

of course, in the case pro gun control, the numbers show that since the gun buy back in Australia in '96-97 when 500,000 semi-automatic rifles and shotguns were purchased back by the (conservative) government, gun suicides have dropped with 74% and gun homicides with 59%. significant numbers...
Mind you, Australia is not a gun free society, it is a controlled environment. so is Switzerland: obtaining a gun is far from easy and possession is controlled.

sticking your head in the sand and using the same lame arguments (none of which are rooted in fact) time and again will never solve anything and nore will more guns...

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Joseph27 » 17th Dec, '12, 08:26

Morrolan wrote:of course, in the case pro gun control, the numbers show that since the gun buy back in Australia in '96-97 when 500,000 semi-automatic rifles and shotguns were purchased back by the (conservative) government, gun suicides have dropped with 74% and gun homicides with 59%. significant numbers...
Mind you, Australia is not a gun free society, it is a controlled environment. so is Switzerland: obtaining a gun is far from easy and possession is controlled.

sticking your head in the sand and using the same lame arguments (none of which are rooted in fact) time and again will never solve anything and nore will more guns...
I remember at the time being a tad upset that I had to give up a gun but it was one of Howard's key achievements. You can still get a gun here, you can still go shooting, you can go on hunting trips but the control makes it so much safer. The US situation is terrible and requires concerted effort to redress the problem.

Of course guns are only one part of the equation - mental health issues are critical as well and as society likes to save costs at every turn, we shut down institutions and defund drug and alcohol counseling at every turn - generally we only like to focus on what makes money and although preventative measures usually save money - they are a cost only after an individual blows up and kills a bunch of people. Fortunately without ready access to guns - the costs of that behavior is less severe than it could be
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by slinky » 17th Dec, '12, 10:15

baloo wrote:Thinking more from the societal aspect, I think we've gone way overboard with the "me" mentality. There is no community anyone. Everything is about the individual, the rights of the individual surpasses the needs of the community. Not only does that eliminate the sense of community and with it the sense of responsibility, but its also going to cause a lot more people dealing with issues to fall trout the cracks and in the worst case want to make a massive "me" statement.
Good point, Baloo.

Lili, that story was terrifying, heartbreaking and maddening at the same time. How can the only 'advice' be to get him arrested and 'in the system'?? God, things really are broken, aren't they?

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Pinklepurr » 17th Dec, '12, 10:32

Lili, that story is chilling, and just a little close to home for me, I know a mother who has those same fears, she has a child who is only 12 now but has threatened to kill her and the rest of the family, and more often himself because he hates how he gets when he gets mad and he feels worthless. Like Michael in the story he is a lovely and loving child the rest of the time. As a precaution they lock their two kitchen knives away, as he has previously threatened them He is medicated but still has times where he has meltdowns, and like Michael he also does not have an absolute diagnosis of his problems. One of the worst things is that once these kids reach adulthood the options get even less and less for care and help, the authorities expect them to look after themselves and that is how they fall through the cracks because there is very little help out there.

As for guns, I will never, ever see the justification for normal human beings to have any of those sorts of weapons around the house. The right to bear arms? What for? I can see the point if you are a sports shooter, and if you are a farmer or similar that needs to use it as part of the work, but semi-automatics and the like? Really? People can justify having those? Why?
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Lili Von Shtupp » 17th Dec, '12, 10:43

I just read another blog, similar but with a bit more hope for parents in this situation, also a good read:

http://www.dominickevans.com/2012/12/i- ... not-alone/
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Pinklepurr » 17th Dec, '12, 13:22

There's a lot of them out there Lili, and I think many upset by the labelling that is now happening of course because of the recent killing. I like how that one finished off, it is true, it is the person in the end who is responsible for what they do, just sometimes they have not had the help along the way to aid them in making the right decisions. I really feel for all the people who have been diagnosed with any of the illnesses that are being bandied around about this guy (especially when no one seems to know if he actually had any diagnosed mental problems/illness) because they will get even more ostracised than they are already.
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