The Gun Debate

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by slinky » 15th Jan, '13, 10:29

Yes, there are restrictions on tobacco advertising in the US. No print, radio or tv ads and no sponsorship of events. I don't think I've ever seen an ad for guns anywhere, but, I don't know if they are allowed or not. I've not heard of an event sponsored by Glock or Smith & Wesson in recent history, but, then I don't know what kind of events gun manufacturers would want to sponsor anyway.

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by T2K » 15th Jan, '13, 11:04

Lili - The 2nd Amendment is highly restricted, much more so than the 1st. There are thousands of federal and state gun laws in the US and a specific federal law enforecement body to enforce them (BATFE). I could possibly accept even more laws (such as requiring all sales to go through an FFL, gifts to family members and inheritances specifically excluded) but if we want to address crime and violence we need to get serious about the big picture and not just engage in groupthink about "guns, baaaad". Guns exist, they're not going away, and there are much more positives to having law-abiding Americans having access to them than negatives.

Slinky - I am pretty sure there is no specific legislation and that, for instance, gun manufacturers sponsor shooting matches (which is normal).
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Tas » 15th Jan, '13, 12:13

I just can't get over that NO ONE from the gun lobby side thinks that there is a major social decay in community that needs to, agrees to and sees that carrying weapons is a necessary, positive, constructive solution to the apparently high degree of violence in their community. A part of me is completely bamboozled, and I think that has fuck all to do with the first second third whatever amendment to whatever.

But I did 'ponder' a couple days ago with bemusement the commentary about having no rights to make observation on American local policy and politics while various Secretary of State wonder around Libya, Egypt and Israel giving an opinion, or generals of the Army are sitting in Afghanistan and Iraq trying to train local forces and governments ...that HEY, why on earth was I worried about Americans killing other Americans.

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by slinky » 15th Jan, '13, 14:52

T2K wrote:Slinky - I am pretty sure there is no specific legislation and that, for instance, gun manufacturers sponsor shooting matches (which is normal).
Shooting matches -- yeah, I guess it makes sense for gun makers to sponsor something like that. Didn't think of that one.

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Fat Bob » 17th Jan, '13, 07:50

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Joseph27 » 17th Jan, '13, 09:42

All this talk of guns is making me long for a trip to Cambodia to have a go with a few decent assault weapons. Whilst I am very reluctant to support machine guns in peoples homes, having them at a gun range is quite fun.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by T2K » 17th Jan, '13, 10:16

FB - Obama's executive orders, from what I've seen so far, are tweaks to administrative policies. Interestingly, some of them are in lockstep with what the NRA has been screaming for years: "we have thousands of gun laws ENFORCE THEM." I need to read a detailed list, and that story doesn't have one. Obama has issued several executive orders which are in litigation now (imagine that, lawsuits in the USA) because some feel he's overstepped his authority by trying to bypass Congress and dictate policy directly. Our system does not allow that.

Executive Orders cannot create or change laws. So, the proposed new legislation still needs to go through Congress, as the Constituion requires. Anything passed there is the law of the land.

J27 - As I've advised before, machineguns have been so highly regulated in the US since 1934 that they are all but prohibited. No one except the wealthiest collectors have them (we're talking US$10,000 to US$100,000 to own one). None of these have ever been used in a crime. So, that's not a part of the present debate, nor has it been for many decades. I've only fired automatic weapons when I was in the Army National Guard.

Surrounding himself with children while he made this announcement seemed gimmicky and low-end. "It's for the childredn" is a cliche anytime anything controversial is done, and he literally used the cliche on this.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Fat Bob » 17th Jan, '13, 10:48

Enforcing the current laws - should there be a tax on firearms and accessories in order to fund the enforcement?
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by slinky » 17th Jan, '13, 11:00

Fat Bob wrote:Enforcing the current laws - should there be a tax on firearms and accessories in order to fund the enforcement?
Sure, if the reason the current laws aren't being enforced is funds related, tax away on gun purchases, bullets, carry licenses, whatever. Can't argue with that. And I don't think all that many normal people are opposed to bringing the assault weapons ban back either.

Look up Project Exile in Virginia if you want an example of gun policy that works pretty well. In a nutshell, if you are caught carrying a gun illegally or use a gun to commit a crime it is an automatic 10 year sentence in federal prison. It cut gun crime dramatically in Richmond, VA probably back in the 90's and it went state wide after that. I think there are other states who have adopted the same or similar policies with good results. (Of course, I'm sure like everything else, if you dig deep enough you can find criticism, but when drug dealers and others who routinely use guns to do their stuff suddenly stop carrying and using guns because they don't want an automatic trip to federal prison, I'd say something is working right.) I'll tell you what state desperately needs to try something like Project Exile: Illinois. Might actually help bring the gun crime and murder rate down in Chicago.

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Joseph27 » 17th Jan, '13, 11:31

A dramatic tax on amno - and maybe an increased tax on guns, would be a good way to help fund some greater enforcement.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by T2K » 18th Jan, '13, 09:16

Actually, the way machineguns / automatic weapons were effectively "banned" (though they are technically not) in the US was that in 1934 a US$200 registration tax was put on each one. At that time, it was huge, so they became really expensive. Then, in 1986, the creation of any more registrations was prohibited. So, the supply was fixed and that's why legally owned machineguns exist but they're crazy expensive. I suppose gun prohibition types could use something like that as a model to ban legally owned firearms of all types.

FB - I already pay federal, state and county taxes (even though I don't live in the nation, the state or the county - thanks USA tax system!) for law enforcement at all three jurisdictional levels.

If I'm not doing something properly at work which is part of my job scope, my company doesn't pay me more to make it right. Same principle here.

However, "for the children" I will agree to pay an extra $10 per firearm and $0.01 per round of ammunition that I buy as soon as we tax every illegal immigrant in the US that we can lay our hands at the rate of "every US$ he/she has in possession at the time of arrest" prior to deportation so that 100% enforcement of our immigration laws can take place. I'll await the proper legislation in Congress for those two new taxes.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Morrolan » 18th Jan, '13, 09:44

what does your desire to tax and deport illegal immigrants have to do with guns?

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by T2K » 18th Jan, '13, 09:51

They're equally silly and unlikely ideas.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Joseph27 » 18th Jan, '13, 10:47

The Daily Show did a great take down on the ATF and it's lack of staff and a leader - and the way in which it has been rendered ineffective at dealing with so many firearms issues. One amazing statistic they brought up was that a majority of problems with guns used in violence could be traced back to 1% of gun dealers and yet there are laws in place that makes proper policing impossible. The law apparantently was written by the NRA and introduced by one of our lovely friends on the Right a decade ago. There is no use suggesting rememdies - it is more for our own sake and I dare say sanity, but at the end of the day, the US is run by an openly corrupt government that renders service to those who pay the most. That is fact - Congress members accepted behaviour would land them in trouble or even jail in most advanced democracies across the world. So leave the empire to decay - it kinda deserves it (although the people short changed by the system sure don't)
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by T2K » 18th Jan, '13, 11:23

"...the US is run by an openly corrupt government that renders service to those who pay the most. That is fact - Congress members accepted behaviour would land them in trouble or even jail in most advanced democracies across the world. So leave the empire to decay - it kinda deserves it (although the people short changed by the system sure don't)"

Um, ok.

Anyway, some other interesting facts:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... s/table-20
As you can see, in almost every state, "hands, fists, feet, etc" are used to kill more people than rifles each year. There is no data to show how many of those rifles are classified as what the media calls "assault weapons". So, the effect of any "assault weapon" law is nearly nil on the big picture.

Each year, about 1 million people in the US (I've seen one figure of 1.5 million) try to buy a gun and are denied due to failing the online background check. Before you can do the online background check, you have to fill out a form with all your information and also declaring that you are not a convicted felon, mentally deficient, or otherwise prohibited from owning firearms. So, those that fail are fully documented. Only a relative handful are prosecuted.

Meanwhile, the law enforcement agency tasked with this job is doing stupid shit like "Operation Fast And Furious" where they send guns to Mexican gangs in some dicked up scheme to track them to gang leaders, losing most of them in the process, and at least one of which was later used to kill a US Border Patrol cop. They shoud be prosecuting everyone that lied on the form, that would be smart law enforcement.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Joseph27 » 21st Jan, '13, 10:13

T2K wrote:"...the US is run by an openly corrupt government that renders service to those who pay the most. That is fact - Congress members accepted behaviour would land them in trouble or even jail in most advanced democracies across the world. So leave the empire to decay - it kinda deserves it (although the people short changed by the system sure don't)"

Um, ok.
Hey it's always fun to resort to hyperboly and drama especially when talking about your strange land. That's the funny part of the US, it has simultantously some of the best and brightest minds in the world and yet a political landscape that is entirely dysfunctional. It didn't really matter if Obama or Romney had won; politics would have continued largely as is and the same 1% would ultimately still become richer, and the divide would continue to grow. And in regards to congress being corrupt - given the cost of an election and the necessity to raise funds, it would seem that things are even worse than when Warren Beaty donged his Senator Bullworth cap.

As for guns - I see we have another shooting today, and then another group of people saying 'guns don't kill people, people kill people...' of course the sad part is that it becomes so much easier for people to do that with guns.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by T2K » 21st Jan, '13, 16:17

"It didn't really matter if Obama or Romney had won; politics would have continued largely as is..."

We agree wholeheartedly and 100% on this point.

J27 - "I see we have another shooting today..."
There are fatal shootings every day in the US. And fatal stabbings. And fatal beatings. After all, "hands, fists and feet" are used to kill more people each year in the US than "assault weapons" and all other types of rifles combined (according to the FBI link I posted above). And all of this has been the case in the US for decades, although violent crime rates are way down over the past 8-10 years.

The only real variable is how many and which shootings the big news networks want to pick up and run with. Oddly, black-on-black urban crime, despite being the largest demographic of US murders, is mostly invisible to the national media. Chicago alone had over 500 murders in 2012.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Fat Bob » 22nd Jan, '13, 14:33

A report from this week's This is True:
==============
PROBLEM SOLVED: The Montpelier (Ohio) Exempted Village Schools Board of Education has approved a proposal that allows school janitors to carry handguns to protect students from school shooters. On a 5-0 vote in response to the school massacre in Connecticut, four custodians have been authorized to receive defensive firearms training and carry guns at the Montpelier K-12 school in Williams County. But, school officials say, the proposal was made even before the Sandy Hook shootings. "Sitting back and doing nothing and hoping it doesn't happen to you is just not good policy anymore," says Superintendent Jamie Grime. "Having guns in the hands of the right people are not a hindrance. They are a means to protect." School Board President Larry Martin agrees. "We have to do something," Martin says, "and this seems like the most logical, reasonable course to go with." (RC/Toledo Blade) ...And it's practical, too: once the shooting is over, the janitors are in position to mop up.
==============

I'm not sure that is a positive step at all. I hope the janitors (or anyone going to be allowed to carry handguns) go through extra checks to ensure they are not likely to snap should a student spill a coke over the hallway floor.
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Morrolan » 23rd Jan, '13, 08:44

remembering the janitor from my high school, i am not sure this is the best idea... [smilie=rotflmao.gif]

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Tas » 23rd Jan, '13, 08:57

I've really had to hold back on the janitor comments. And anyway, why not the canteen ladies?
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Morrolan » 23rd Jan, '13, 09:05

Tas wrote:I've really had to hold back on the janitor comments. And anyway, why not the canteen ladies?
our janitor's wife was the canteen lady and she scared the shit out of us. think Ena Sharples, but with a slightly sharper tongue. she wouldn't have needed a gun... [smilie=w00t.gif]

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Lili Von Shtupp » 23rd Jan, '13, 09:10

Tas wrote:I've really had to hold back on the janitor comments. And anyway, why not the canteen ladies?
[smilie=rotflmao.gif]
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by T2K » 23rd Jan, '13, 17:55

Actually, the worst school massacre in US history (1927, Michigan) WAS committed by the janitor! He didn't use any guns though.

If these people are licenced to carry a concealed weapon, I have no problem where they carry it (whether on the street, or at their jobs, or whatever). There are millions of Americans walking around legally armed every day since the laws allowing concealed carry have expanded to almost every state of the past decade. Previous predictions about legallly armed Americans engaging in gunfights over parking spots, blood in the streets, wild west shootouts, etc have been proven groundless.

As I've repeated here many times, if someone wants to commit mass murder then obviously an additional law to break in the process is absolutely not going to stop them. These are not crimes of passion, they are all pre-planned events.

"I want to go kill numerous other human beings today and I am ready to do it - but I'm not allowed to carry a gun into the building. So, I won't." Does anyone really believe that?
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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by expat yorkshire » 23rd Jan, '13, 19:25

Didn't Scooby Doo always have trouble from mild mannered janitors ?

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Re: The Gun Debate

Post by Fat Bob » 23rd Jan, '13, 20:16

T2K wrote: "I want to go kill numerous other human beings today and I am ready to do it - but I'm not allowed to carry a gun into the building. So, I won't." Does anyone really believe that?

"I want to go kill numerous other human beings today and I am ready to do it - and the Government has given me the right to go and buy multiple weapons for which I can do this with very few checks" Does anyone really believe that?

Or:

"I want to go kill numerous other human beings today and I am ready to do it - and the Government allows my mum to buy multiple weapons, and all I have to do is start the carnage here and there they all go ." Does anyone really believe that?
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