When do you know you really have been here too long?

[sundaymorningstaple]

Who ever said it is right, this smilie does look like SMS !

Yeah, telling hairstyle. Wadda doin' tonight? Playing hit'n'run?

[Raffles]

I can't hardly wait to chuck it all and go back to being a gentleman farmer.

Farmer I can believe, not quite sure about the other bit........

[sluggo]

Very interesting post. I haven't had a chance to read all of it yet as I have just returned for a night on the town and am about to partake in a great cigar. I will add my two cents tomorrow. Cheers!

[Kooky]

sms, you helped me make my decision to go. Please don't take this as an insult, but I've watched you become more and more downbeat, maybe even bitter, over the last couple of years (and you know where I see it most). I want to go before I get like that, knowing that if it all goes tits up there I would be quite happy to return.

[Bob the Builder]

I've been here 8 years now, been a PR for 4 years (offered citizenship - but you would have to be mad to renounce 2 EU citizenships to do so), now bought property and getting married.

Currently it all seems quite good - it has its issues, you should hear my language when I am driving!. I went through a bit of a wobbly phase on the 4 / 5 year mark but that was probably due to the complete twat of an Aussie boss I had. In fact he truely deserves to be called a c**t. I now have another Aussie boss, and a better bloke you would struggle to find.

Currently then, job is going well, pays me OK and life generally is not too bad. I actually worked out from net pay what I would need to earn back in the UK to receive net net the same as I do in Singapore, and it was quite a frighteningly large sum. Sure money isn't everything, but it certainly helps.

[Lichtgestalt]

Baloo... I'm pretty sure that there is no country in the world that allows 3 different passports

[Lichtgestalt]

if it all goes tits up there I would be quite happy to return.

Planning to have a bit of plastic surgery?

[Kooky]

Won't be able to afford any once we're paying Aussie taxes, my dear.

[kittykat]

Great post Aliya and quite pertinent. As some of you know my company is closing operations here and this is the crossroads for me. Do I stay or go? Now is a logical break point 4.5 years - a beautiful son and the end of a relationship. Australia looks pretty tempting at the moment - beaches, parks abound, my own backyard etc etc.

Now I'm really looking at taking the plunge there's a lot to weigh up. Money for one - in terms of disposable income it's pretty good here. Taxes in Oz are very high. Biggest hit for me will be no full-time help with baby KK. The daycare run, calling parents, friends, family to pick him up if I'm stuck etc etc. Weekends not being endless frolicking on the beach but washing, cooking for the week as I won't have time to cook at night etc.

The lovely Ladies in TLC are giving me great support and advice on how to tackle this connundrum and to take it slowly. Most importantly - I don't want to end up in suburbia in Oz frustrated beyond belief because I jumped too soon. On the other hand I don't want to take on another role here and still be frustrated thinking I should have left when I could.

No immediate solution but certainly options abound.

[Bender]

Many people would say that this is a time to make a list of the pros and cons and proceed on that basis. It's not a bad thing to do, but I'd say it's not as simple as that. For me, making a list of the things I want and don't want (especially the emotional/intangible things) has a lot of value.

I am where I am because, among other things, I love living in a place where there are four distinct seasons (although Canberra's winter makes me look forward to Canberra's summer, and summer makes me look forward to winter), where horizons are broader and there's more out there than just a city, to be able to get away from the noise and crowds and have space, and to be closer to ageing parents.

I believe the things that drive us to change are a bit like magnetism - you're either attracted to a new place or thing, or repelled by your current situation. It's important to be aware of what your motivations are. Life for me became much better when I started changing jobs because the new one 'drew' me to it, rather than changing because I didn't like where I was, although I found out there are plenty of jobs I don't like along the way.

I've known many people who run their lives as if they're managing a project. While they've mostly been 'successful' by conventional measures (money/prestige/where they live/what car they drive, etc.), many have ignored the basic emotional stuff which is not as easily measured (happiness/contentment/relationships), and as a result feel as if they're missing something. It's the old 'money doesn't buy happiness' thing.

Talk to people, listen to advice, but remember to trust your instincts and gut feelings - they very strongly reflect what feels 'right' for you. If it all becomes too stressful and hard, and you don't have to decide right now, shelve it and decide later. To not decide is a valid decision in itself - the issue can be looked at again later. Be gentle with yourself.

Now look what I've done - I was going to stay out of this.

[Kooky]

Me being me, of course I made a list. The intangibles featured quite heavily, and in the end took priority over the tangibles. (Most of you will understand what I mean.)

[Fat Bob]

I've known many people who run their lives as if they're managing a project. While they've mostly been 'successful' by conventional measures (money/prestige/where they live/what car they drive, etc.), many have ignored the basic emotional stuff which is not as easily measured (happiness/contentment/relationships), and as a result feel as if they're missing something. It's the old 'money doesn't buy happiness' thing.

That just sounds gay. Real men don't have emotions! Well, we have two: hungry or horney. So check if I've got a hard-on, if not, make me a sandwich!

[sundaymorningstaple]

Baloo... I'm pretty sure that there is no country in the world that allows 3 different passports

Actually, the US does. It doesn't care how many you hold. There are a lot of Canadians in the US who have taken up citizenship, still have their Canadian Citizenship and also hold UK Passports due to parentage. My former boss in the Seismic Industry was one (he lives in Houston).

[sundaymorningstaple]

sms, you helped me make my decision to go. Please don't take this as an insult, but I've watched you become more and more downbeat, maybe even bitter, over the last couple of years (and you know where I see it most). I want to go before I get like that, knowing that if it all goes tits up there I would be quite happy to return.

Yeah, but you also know that most of mine, FB notwithstanding, is based a lot on emotion as well. I'm a country boy and I don't know if I could have stayed anywhere in any BIG CITY without getting this way. My, delayed by 20 years, homesickness is probably exacerbating the problem so that I let the little s&%t get to me more easily now. That and the fact that I'm kinda stuck here due to my own morals as well which kinda compounds the problem.

[Fat Bob]

For those not happy: you think you will find that happiness elsewhere? Just a wuestion, I know some that have and others that haven't. But I know that if I ever come to having to make a decision on whether to stay or leave I I do it knowing that the next place would be better. i.e it will feed me better or....

Baloo, interesting take on why to become a citizen. Same here for becoming a PR, it was done for financial gain. Must say, though "I" do vote (my parents proxy vote for me) in the UK, I have little interst in voting here. AndI know a lot of people who would make sure their kids didn't HAVE to do NS by de-registering them from PR status. Interesting that you're thinking you won't.

[Possum]

If a child was born here or lived here for much of the developmental stage of their life AND attended local school then the NS may work for them. I spoke to a lot of different people and researched this extensively when deciding on my sons future. He is now in NZ and things are working out better than I could have hoped for

[BFG]

FB said, and I quote -

"So instead of thinking "when do you know you really have been here too long?" why not think "where and what can somewhere else give me that Singapore can't?"

I have to admit, that's is how I am starting to think. After 15 years here, I am starting to long for seasons, good countryside, owning a decent amount of land, banter and all the other stuff that says it's time to go home. The problem is that the decision to come out here was mine alone, the decision to go back involves 3 other people.

[baloo]

If a child was born here or lived here for much of the developmental stage of their life AND attended local school then the NS may work for them. I spoke to a lot of different people and researched this extensively when deciding on my sons future. He is now in NZ and things are working out better than I could have hoped for

But Poss 1 is a different situation Poss. He's a Singaporean with a Singaporean Passport. He's actually forefeiting his citizenship by leaving. A bit different to a PR.

[Spike]

I'm with Baloo and Azzam on this topic. I'm in my 8th year and have been a PR for 6.5 of them! Sold everything in UK, bought here and am pretty much planted for the duration. Having travelled to 60 countries over the years, most of them at my previous employers' expense, I have no desire to travel elsewhere and have a lot of contrasts I can make with other countries. Yes there are things here that could annoy me, especially kiasu attitudes but it's up to me whether I allow it to get to me. There are plenty of upsides to life here and the business friendly environment here has allowed me to achieve a life long ambition of running my own business and being answerable to no-one, except my clients of course.

There's not much difference between PR and citizen in term of benefits for someone in my position. I was offered citizenship about four years ago. I didn't take it because I assumed I would have to give up my UK passport. However, since then, I've discovered there is a work around, which the British Consulate will tell you about if you ask. I still might consider it at some point in the future.

I don't understand some expats who say they would take up citizenship if it wasn't for their sons having to do national service. I think NS is probably the best thing that can happen to a young man. If it was still in force in the UK we might not have so many undisciplined and unruly louts roaming the streets looking for trouble. If my son had been with me when I was offered citizenship it might have been a deciding factor for accepting it rather than rejecting it.

As for dreading landing a Changi, that's a laugh. I was a regular for many years landing at Heathrow on a Friday evening, faced with not only a dire airport experience but the pleasure of the M25/M3 car parks for about an hour and a half. I just lurve landing at Changi where I speed through immigration with my quick access card and then wait not more than 15 minutes for my luggage, which I'm 90% certain will be there, intact. I then have a queue free ride of about 15 minutes home....luxury.

[azzam]

I knwo you won't believe this , coming from me - but I'd have been happy for my son to do NS too. Wouldn't have hurt him a bit. He had friends doing it and he was quite envious. They got fit and cut looking and even got to go home at weekends!

[Fat Bob]

I don't understand some expats who say they would take up citizenship if it wasn't for their sons having to do national service. I think NS is probably the best thing that can happen to a young man. If it was still in force in the UK we might not have so many undisciplined and unruly louts roaming the streets looking for trouble. If my son had been with me when I was offered citizenship it might have been a deciding factor for accepting it rather than rejecting it.

Though I agree NS could sort things out in the UK, I would not force someone into it. If someone wanted to do it then I would not hold them back, but I think military service should be voluntary. Did you know some of the Singapore armed forces served in or around Iraq? No thanks to me! Though less of an issue as I don't have kids at the mo!

Interesting to hear about the High Commission's "work around" in order to keep UK citizenship. Might be something I look into in a couple of years time.

[baloo]

AndI know a lot of people who would make sure their kids didn't HAVE to do NS by de-registering them from PR status. Interesting that you're thinking you won't.

At the end of the day I want BBIII to have as many opportunities open to him as possible. I don't know which country will be the most prosperous in 20 years time and I don't know what sort of life he wants to lead. He has Japanese, Aussie & Italian (take that Lichetyschtick) passports at the moment. If we're still here in 18 years time and he does his NS, then he also has Singapore PR status, possibly citizenship if he chooses. It may not be possible but I'd like him to have the option to go live and work in either Aus, Japan, Europe or Singapore when he's starting out on his career, whatever that will be. When he is in his early 20s, he can decide what he wants to do.

With the NS, I'm not sure what Europe & Japan are like but I know in Australia, if you have served in another country's military, NS or volunteer, you are not allowed to serve in Australia's military. Knowing that little loophole, if a massive war broke out where conscription was rife, he could relocate to Aus knowing he can't be called up thus avoiding the war and staying back to shag all the lonely females left behind.

[sundaymorningstaple]

You are basically following the same style of thinking that I did. That's why my son is doing his NS (While he does have dual Am/Sing citizenship it would have been a easy matter to send him to the US but by doing so, it would have limited his options later in life. Additionally, I'd rather see him do NS here than in the US (IRAQ or worse). I've tried wherever possible to give him the most opportunities as opposed to crippling his options. And frankly, NS, regardless of the country is good for a young man. (But not my way - 18 months in a combat zone).

[Possum]

[/quote]But Poss 1 is a different situation Poss. He's a Singaporean with a Singaporean Passport. He's actually forefeiting his citizenship by leaving. A bit different to a PR.[/quote]

Yes he holds a Singaporean passport (as well as 2 others) but he is in no way a Singaporean mentally. He has not forfeited his right to citizenship but now has the right to choose when he reaches the age of 21. He may decide to discover his roots and embrace the culture and even enter the NS but now he has the option of CHOICE when he enters adulthood. I spoke with numerous people including families in the same situation, top military personal from several countries including Singapore and government officials. One family I spoke with removed both their sons from Singapore; one of them has since returned and just completed his service. Each child/person is different and what works for one does not work for another. The expat life here for a teenage boy is very different to that of an adult or that of a child immersed in the local culture. I did not like the values, attitudes or believes he was developing or the environment he existed in. The control/influence you are able to exert over a small child or a 13-14yo is very different to that of a 15/16 yo boy. In a way he is now in a military style environment but it is one I relate to, identify with and believe is right for him. His options are now not limited but increased when he enters his early 20’s.

[azzam]

Though less of an issue as I don't have kids at the mo!

At the mo????